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Uzzr
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USB

Post by Uzzr » May 8th, 2013, 8:39 am

What happened to USB support?

Sd memory is so much more expensive than USB memory sticks due to the digital camera price gouging. And USB hdds are even cheaper per GB.

Is it really that expensive to add a USB port?

This might be a deal breaker for me. I don't want to spend $500+ just for the convenience factor when I could buy dozens of replacement laser/motors for the same price and just use CD-Rs for the next 50 years. And how much of a convenience factor is it really when I have to keep swapping sd cards?

It's also very unlikely that compatiblity will be 100%. based on the PS2 scene I'm guessing 90% at best and you can bet that there are going to be incompatible games you would want to play in that 10%. So you'd still have to use CD-Rs for some games anyway.

I'm sure you have your reasons. but I'm pretty disappointed :crying

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Re: USB

Post by Matt » May 8th, 2013, 11:56 am

USB flash drives are way too slow. It would defeat the purpose of using PSIO. SD is high speed.
PSIO will support SDHC (32GB max), as well as future support for SDXC (1TB max), so there is plenty of room for PlayStation 1 games.

A 32GB SDHC is plenty of room for your PSX games, where each game ranges in their different file size. The biggest file size is of course around the 700MB mark, and the smallest being several megabytes. Take a look at some of your PSX file sizes so you know what card you will need to fit the game you wish to play. If you run out of room, delete an old game, and replace it with the new one you wish to play.

SD is actually becoming more cheaper. Soon we will have greater SD sizes (SDXC) with even cheaper prices for SDHC.

I don't see it as a big deal to swap cards when passing a PSX game will take you a few hours or days even.

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 8th, 2013, 1:17 pm

Well, USB flash drives are only slow if they are that bad, here's mine: :dance
Image

Read: 209MB/s
Write: 165MB/s

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Re: USB

Post by Yuri » May 8th, 2013, 5:45 pm

the matter is not so much in speed level.

someone : try to research/compare what hardware/software you need for access data on SD card and USB device and tell us what difference? :D

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Re: USB

Post by The_Reaper_CooL » May 8th, 2013, 6:55 pm

I only know that I've already calculated what games I would be using on a 32 GB SD card. I could fit like 70-80 games on it alone!!!

So if there will be SDXC support we can put all games on it, and it would be inside PSIO, and wouldn't take more space like in the case of a USB Drive (which I preferred too, but I'm okay with SD too, if it'll really support 1 TB cards)

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 9th, 2013, 5:16 am

PSX games are far more than 1TB.

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Re: USB

Post by The_Reaper_CooL » May 9th, 2013, 6:21 am

Gradius wrote:PSX games are far more than 1TB.
Well, technically speaking yes, because if you want to play with ALL the games (including all NTSC, PAL and JAPANESE ones), then they can be well over 1 TB. But if you rule out the japanese ones and the duplicates, you can sort of fit them onto a 1 TB card.

Let's count them like this way: There are 2148 known PS1 games. The games may range from 10 MB (Pepsi Man, if I remember correctly was just 10 MB, maybe 50 MB...) to 700 MB (a full disc). Some may even require more discs to play (Final Fantasy games, Fear Effect and Metal Gear comes into mind).

From these 2148 games there are at least 139 games or so that's only available in japanese. I know 2 games that can still be played even if you don't speak the language, the first is Dragon Ball Z Legends, and the second is Ninja Hayate.

Now let's even down the number to 2000. Let's use the maximum disc size, which is 700 MB.

2000 x 700 MB = 1.400.000 MB, which is 1.4 TB, BUT!!!

As I've said before, there are some games that don't use a disc to it's fullest, but we can count the games with more discs in it.

I've looked upon a collection, and what I've found is this: In this collection alone were only the PAL version of the games, with the collection saying it's like 732 GB-s, compressed.

From these 732 GB of games I can safely say that without dupes (because we don't want to play games in French, German and other languages, only English, and we don't need demos, kiddie-games, Barbie games and whatnot, even if it's a collection) there will be like 4-500 GB of games we need (maybe more, maybe less, I only counted them until all numbered, A, B, C and D games, and they were 70-80 GB at that time).

If a game is missing (let's say these are 100 games), we can easily find them in NTSC collections. These could be 700 MB-s, which means 70 GB-s overall.

So in total the games would be around 800 GB-s, and those should well fit onto a 1 TB SDXC card.



This research was brought to you by TRC, who has lots of time in his hands XD

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Re: USB

Post by answerawake » May 9th, 2013, 6:45 am

Hi,

I do not think SDHC standard supports 64GB. According to Wikipedia, SDHC maxes out at 32GB. This is why I had made some posts a while back pushing for SDXC to be implemented at some point in the lifespan of this product. At some point SDXC will be the standard and that will be from 64GB to 2TB so it will be the final solution to this issue. Now will SDXC support 2TB right off the bat? Probably not(since there are no 2TB cards in existence) but in theory if the standard is implemented to spec, then the device should support 2TB when it eventually comes out....at least that is what I believe. :D

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 9th, 2013, 7:22 am

SDHC indeed has a max of 32GB.
SDXC start from 32GB and can goes until 2TB (not 1TB).

@The Reaper Cool: Actually, I don't care of PAL games only.

AFAIK, we have (that are know):

NTSC U: 1695 games
NTSC J: 2292 games
PAL: 2717 games

Between NTSC U and PAL you can find a lot duplicates, but very few with NTSC J.

From there you can calc the REAL total size for each region if you have patience or make a script for it!

Source:
http://redump.org/discs/system/psx

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Re: USB

Post by Uzzr » May 9th, 2013, 8:15 am

I can't see how speed would be an issue with the PS1's slow 1x/2x transfer rates. The Wii loaders can handle images from a fragmented FAT32 HDD without a hitch. The reason PS2 has speed issues is because it only has slow USB 1.1 ports.


My biggest complaint is the high price and low space of sd cards.

The largest sdxc's New Egg is selling right now seems to be 128GB and the cheapest of them cost $85! I estimate I'd need at least 4 of those, so that's a $340 floor just for the media! Some people have mentioned 1TB. While I don't need so much, 1 TB worth of cards currently costs almost $700!

It's crazy price gouging because those greedy fuckers have got the market locked up. :x

You might say well 64gb cards are only $36! Okay so now you spend $288 and now you have 8 cards to swap. (And that's just for the 512GB I think I need.)

Oh and lets remember that media sellers lie about capacity so 1GB is really 93% of a real GB. So roughly $300 only buys about 476GB worth of sd cards. :x

And after all that New Egg is selling 1TB external HDD for less than the cost of 1 of those 128GB cards! (okay so its only 952GB really). $100 for 2TB external.


With USB support I can have enough room for every game ever on one device (with space left over for Wii/PS2 games) and all at a reasonable price TODAY.

With SD the costs are astronomical and I have to keep swapping or reprogramming the cards. Or wait 5 years for the price per GB ratio to become reasonable.

Costs will come down a bit, but never as fast as USB devices (flash or magnetic). It will also be years before they have TB cards and they will be very expensive at first. Maybe $500.



This article has a good description of how the USB implementation works and links to more information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass-s ... vice_class

If it's mostly a software issue I'm sure someone would volunteer to write the code.

Please please please at least add USB circuitry to the design for expansion purposes. I'd gladly pay the extra $10 if it means saving me $100's on the media.

Thank you for your consideration.

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Re: USB

Post by The_Reaper_CooL » May 9th, 2013, 9:06 am

Gradius wrote:@The Reaper CooL: Actually, I don't care of PAL games only.

AFAIK, we have (that are know):

NTSC U: 1695 games
NTSC J: 2292 games
PAL: 2717 games

Between NTSC U and PAL you can find a lot duplicates, but very few with NTSC J.

From there you can calc the REAL total size for each region if you have patience or make a script for it!

Source:
http://redump.org/discs/system/psx
I wasn't looking at redump.org, but it's more up-to-date.

And I know what you mean, you want to have ALL the games, but for playing purposes only you can get every PAL (or NTSC, if you prefer them) versions, minus the duplicates, plus the regional exclusives, and you can play "all" games.

Anyways what we are really trying to say with this is that we need SDXC support, with a minimum of 1 TB :)

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 9th, 2013, 10:54 am

Uzzr, keep in mind it only supports SDHC, unless they add support for SDXC at start, but I doubt since it adds some costs (especially delays) on development.

While is nice to have them all on couple SD cards, it will not be practical due the high costs. So I will keep like 32GBx5 cards (good ones costs $22ea) and all the rest on HDD. The true is, you can't get rid of HDD... yet.

Finally, they won't "lie" to you, is a really bad and old "standard" to define 1MB as 1000 Kbytes instead of 1024 Kbytes!

And beyond 32GB, FAT32 really complains to you! So ext3 (or even ext4) or NTFS would be a MUST beyond 32GB !

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 9th, 2013, 11:05 am

By default SDXC supports exFAT:
http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detai ... patibility

exFAT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT

But NTFS is better. Of course, I still prefer ext4, but few of us have access to it.

So the big issue would be exFAT in first place!

exFAT for Linux:
https://code.google.com/p/exfat/

More info:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTI3OTQ

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Re: USB

Post by Matt » May 9th, 2013, 11:47 am

answerawake wrote:Hi,I do not think SDHC standard supports 64GB. According to Wikipedia, SDHC maxes out at 32GB.
You're right! I have made a mistake :?
I will edit my previous first post.
Thank's for spotting that out.

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Re: USB

Post by Uzzr » May 9th, 2013, 12:00 pm

exFAT requires license fees.

NTFS is proprietary. Code to read it is available, but it is generally considered unsafe to write to.

FAT32 works fine for large drives,especially for the very low data rates ps1 uses. I've got a 512GB FAT32 drive for Wii games and it works pefectly fine. The only minor problem is Windows refuses to format large drives and you have to use a third-party app, if your drive didn't come pre-formatted.

Why fuck around with SDXC when you can implement USB mass drive instead and transparently support any USB2.0 device now and in the future? No need to upgrade firmware to support larger USB drives. By the time they come out with 1TB sdxc cards for $500 you will be able to buy a 2TB USB stick for $200 or a tiny USB-powered 5TB HDD for $50.

Why certain people are actually advocating using those shitty expensive cards is beyond me. Form factor? Use a USB stick and save %20.

Maybe they went out and bought a bunch of sd cards and need to protect their investment? No problem. Get a sd-usb converter for $5. They work a treat. And theyr often easier to get the card in/out of than a normal slot.

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Re: USB

Post by Matt » May 9th, 2013, 12:32 pm

As Cybdyn stated, programming the low level code to support USB mass storage devices is extremely complex. We will most likely have a dedicated I/O port on PSIO for future devices to attach to PSIO, so we will see what happens, but the chances are slim to none for USB support.

You can either change 1000 CD-ROM's, or 500 SD card's. Your choice.

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Re: USB

Post by Gradius » May 9th, 2013, 3:01 pm

@Shadow: I guess you mean 50 SDs, not 500 !

But it would be 22 SDs (32GB/ea) to be more precise (if you want to replace 1000 CDs).

That if every CD would have 700MB.

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Re: USB

Post by Matt » May 9th, 2013, 3:19 pm

I wasn't being exact with the numbers. I was just making a point :mrgreen:
You're right though with the math.

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Re: USB

Post by Yuri » May 9th, 2013, 7:18 pm

usb host device is quite complex in programming. you think it's easy using usb flash or devices just because all drivers for usb devices in windows, and manufacturer made/support drivers for their devices.

but when we wanna use usb device in home-made device - we need make such driver ourself.

but dont worry - this question is under developing too. i read more about ARM controllers with USB HOST support. and we plan use them in future. but it take many time. so we need learn "landing" before "flying" )))

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Re: USB

Post by Killa200 » May 10th, 2013, 4:02 am

That was something I was going to suggest as a future proof option. Perhaps use a processor capable of host / client usb, and don't worry about programming for the usb host support for now. Maybe even pawn it off on the community once these go public to do some dev legwork to get host running to cut down on in house dev. Would require modifications in perhaps the hardware and modifications in the software for the comparable processor with support to get client usb back up, but it wold leave the option open.

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